Anke Schmidt’s journey and Women in PR interview
In this conversation of the Women in PR podcast, Anke Schmidt shares her journey into public relations, beginning with an internship in France that sparked her interest in intercultural communication. She discusses her extensive experience working in Asia-Pacific as a communications leader for BASF, highlighting the cultural challenges and strategies she developed to navigate complex international environments. Throughout the discussion, Anke provides insights on indirect influence, managing global teams, and the importance of understanding cultural contexts when implementing communication strategies. She also reflects on her involvement with Global Women in PR Germany and the importance of balancing career ambitions with family priorities.
Takeaways (Summarized by a Claude.ai project)
- Anke’s career in PR began through intercultural experiences between French and German business practices
- Cultural adaptation requires both resilience and strategic thinking about indirect influence
- Understanding power dynamics across cultures is essential for effective global communication
- When managing global teams, consider resource disparities between headquarters and regional offices
- Successful international PR requires flexible approaches to planning and implementation
- Indirect influence strategies can be effective in hierarchical organizational cultures
- Building community among global team members helps overcome resource and expertise gaps
- Women need networks and visible role models in PR leadership positions
- Family should remain a priority even amid successful career development
- Effective intercultural communication often comes through lived experience rather than just training
Transcript Automatically generated by Microsoft Teams)
Ana Adi 0:07
Anke, it’s so wonderful to finally have you here. Welcome to the show.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 0:12
Thank you very much for having me, Anna.
Ana Adi 0:14
I ask everyone who comes on the show because it’s still a wonder that we’re in the 21st century and people end up in public relations. How on earth do they end up? NPR and comms. And I’ve changed. I used to ask PR, but I realise that public relations, you know, has a bad name in some places and it’s misunderstood in others. But I ask about PR. Com still. How did you end up in this in this fascinating industry of ours?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 0:43
OK. How much time do we have, Anna? Because it’s not the. It’s the kind of. If I really go back and think about how do I end it up and when did I come up?
Or really pursue this career, I have to really go back.
When I was 18 and I finished high school and I knew I wanted to do something, maybe with journalism, writing and so on. But it’s very difficult to get into this into this business and I couldn’t find a real landing. And I had another dream of learning a foreign language as it would be my native language and.
I had learned English in school and French as a third language, so I thought it would be great to go to France, get an opportunity as an intern there to learn the language, and luckily at that time I mean you and I, we have a bit of some years on our shoulders, so to speak. So at that time, you still needed a visa and everything. So the EU was was there, but it was not so easy to get to find a space. And I was lucky that my father had some connections in France and he managed to get me a place in accounting.
Accounting.
Forklift company. So having said that, you may wonder what has that to do with communication. Actually it’s the best place to learn a language because numbers are universal, right? You don’t need to speak immediately. You can type in numbers you can calculate in accounting you you don’t have a problem with the language. Immediately you can listen a lot and learn. And this is what I did where the cops part came in was that this was a French subsidiary of a German.
Had of a German headquartered company.
And when in accounting you have these at times when you need to deliver, you know your your lists, your numbers and so on and so forth, then is where the French spirit and the German mentality kind of clashed. That was the time when on the phone you had the people yelling. Get me onk on the phone and then the Germans were telling me, Miss Schmidt, we are waiting for the lists, you know, they were due today. Where are they? And then I’m talking to the French guys. And they said, hey, my goodness, you know, they shouldn’t make such a fuss about it. It would come.
But tomorrow they shouldn’t be really, so you know, mad about it. And then I had to find a compromise between those two souls. And actually I found that really, really interesting in terms of intercultural communication and intercultural understanding, because I thought Germans and French are not so different. I mean, we all know they are. But at that time, relatively speaking. Yeah, compared to when I moved later on to Asia.
Ana Adi 2:52
None.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 3:12
We were neighbouring countries but I realised how different.
The two cultures are and there is a need for communication and for basically international corporate communication, intercultural corporate communication, and this is when I decided this is the way I want to go. I don’t want to go into journalism. I really want to focus on that one. I mean, I was supposed to spend like two months as an intern. I afterwards stayed a year in France and and learned my language and and whatever I had had planned to do. But then I really had to get back.
Because people were saying it’s nice that you earn your money there, but basically in Germany it’s not a, you know, it’s no training. It’s nothing special. You need to get going on university and sometimes force. But my plan to then really make this a profession and think about how I could.
Add some value in this intercultural context in corporate communication, that was. That was basically what I think the starting point.
Ana Adi 4:07
I’m just thinking that out of all the places where you could have dealt with numbers.
You go from a country in Germany, you know where you get anyways, your number’s awkward from 20 onwards, right? Because it’s the small digit before the last digit and you go to France where you start adding them up. The moment you pass 50.
Just let me say that I think you know there are other numbers that you could have dealt with far, far more easily.
And into that. But so this was where it started. Of course. Of course. Of course. You would say in France that you know is not such a big deal that it comes tomorrow.
How did you end up in Asia? You’ve you’ve mentioned that already. What was that all about?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 4:56
Yeah, actually it was a bit of.
A bit of chance, so to speak. I mean I I after I mean I should mention, I studied French literature, so people today who ask me you are heading or heading into one of the tax 40 corporate comps departments and what did you study. I have to admit that I studied French literature. I have a master’s in French literature. I wrote actually about a detective novels. So this actually was kind of you know the paving ground I mean the perfect round to become.
A cop com lead, but joking aside.
I think I did what I loved most. I knew that I wanted to go into communication. I spent apart from studying French literature, I studied economics and politics. Science, so political science.
There was a lot of it with, you know, this was at that time still possible to have these three subjects together. And I worked every, every holiday, you know, I did an internship.
In a company I worked did an internship in the build side on in the Bundespressement in Bonn at that time still and stuff like that. So I kind of put together.
Studies on one side, which were not directly linking into corporate comms but with some practical experience, so that when I was ready or finished, I really didn’t have a problem finding finding a job because I had enough experience. I was also freelance writer for a small newspaper and so on and so forth. So, and then I wanted to be I wanted to. I looked for an employer.
That would provide some kind of traineeship or voluntary art, as we say in Germany, and I basically went to the I think what today is the DP Aggie, you know, I I I look for a list, you know very German structured way get me a list of which companies are offering this type of training and and then I found BASF and BSF at that time that was the the tape company these were you know the tapes that you had at home where you registered you know your music or your love letters or whatever.
For me, that was synonymous with.
An international brand, you know I am. And and they and they actually do that still today they had a very good programme in terms of training and people.
Ana Adi 7:18
Oh, I thought I thought you were going to say they still do tapes. You mean they?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 7:21
No, no, no, not at all anymore. No, if there, if there are some people here who are listening and still no tapes, I I have to say that’s great. I bet there are. If there are younger people, they will ask what are tapes? We don’t know exactly what she’s talking about and but that was no. This stopped. I mean, years, years. I would almost say centuries ago and and but this is how I ended up where I was choosing something and I chose.
BASF and but for the tape business, because that’s what I knew for. I mean, they don’t do this anymore. As most of you probably know, probably know they don’t do any end consumer products at all. So it’s very, it’s AB to B business.
But they offer really great training because you asked me about Asia. It was BSF that brought me to Asia because I then thought chemical industry is a great. It’s a great business to start with because it is.
It is in the public awareness, you know, it’s kind of critically viewed. I mean, it’s not a, it’s not a walk in the park and rightly so. There are a lot of concerns and they need to do great public relations and I have to say I also found when I interviewed that they had.
Really a well structured strategic approach to different target groups and so on and so forth. So what what I was, what I was looking for and I thought let me start with this and once I’ve learned all the traits of the chemical industry, everything else will be walk in the park. I will obviously leave after my two years or something and go back to a more beautiful city and and.
And actually when you ask me I what what started as I would say for two years and made it up to 24 years and I started in BSF.
I was able to shorten the training because I could convince the people that I had quite some knowledge already, so they gave me a permanent contract as a spokesperson and I thought, oh, that’s actually great, you know, so I stay a little bit longer and I did this maybe for 1 1/2 years and they asked me whether I would go to Singapore and I have to say I thought, wow, I don’t know anything about Asia. I don’t know anything about Singapore. I mean, I was the French girl, right?
And but and I went there, went there for six months because it was an exchange between an Asian colleague.
And was supposed to learn about German headquarter and for me to and they needed somebody to replace in, in, in, in Singapore and.
I they asked me, I was actually not the first choice because there was another colleague who had much more experience than I had at that time. I was fairly young still, but she got pregnant and couldn’t do it. And so I came into the game and they asked me to go and I went for six months and this was basically started. I came back in between, but then I went again for eight more years and.
And and had an amazing time in terms of building up corporate comms for BSF in Asia Pacific, a market that for the chemical industry was and still is a very important market and to help support building the business and run corporate comms in Asia Pacific, it was was a terrific experience.
Ana Adi 10:27
Well, let me stop you there for a little bit because if counting in front is a headache.
For most.
Of us mere mortals who have learned French but don’t speak daily, going to Singapore is a different world. I mean that that city state has a different rhythm and it’s a melting pot of a variety of of cultures, and I would imagine that applies to business as well.
How did you?
Did you land? You called yourself the French girl?
What do you recall from your initial impact?
With Singapore and then, is there anything from your, I mean eight years it is, it is quite a career.
What is it that still stays with you even even now, after so many years of not living in Singapore, but it’s still embedded in you at work and your work.
Procedures or preferences?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 11:34
Yeah. And you’re right, Anna. Actually, Asia. And because after Singapore, I went to Hong Kong. So I I basically All in all were nine years in Asia Pacific and almost half, half in in both of the the cities and the close, the similar they look from outside or from Europe the the more difficult there’s more difference to them than we made then we may think so I had really a full blown great great experience and something that marked me personally a lot and and also professionally.
Because I think first of all.
I’m a strong believer in having international experience and having lived in another country. It is different and not always easy. I mean, it’s really going through the motion and what we call culture shock was truly there. I mean it is, it would be wrong to say that it was all nice and sunny sailing. It clearly was not. I mean, there were a lot of evenings where I was literally crying into my pillow.
And because it was difficult for me to understand, you know?
Read the sign. I mean to read the signs in terms of the interactions.
And and at the same time. And of course, in hindsight, it’s it’s more easy to say it was extremely rewarding because going through the motions, I think it’s important in terms of learning about yourself in terms of how do you deal with the setbacks, you know, how do you deal with crying on the one side but then getting up and getting the energy and saying, OK, let’s see, let’s try this one or let’s try that one. Not to forget at that time.
And we didn’t have intercultural training. I mean, what we do today, this was not existent because I went there for half a year, my boss for half a year was not important to get it. And when I went back after, you know, they said, oh, you have been already there for half a year, so you don’t need it. So basically there was no, I didn’t have that. So I’d really learning by doing learning it the hard way because you make mistakes. And and if nobody kind of helps you or assumes positive intent, you have no chance.
It’s chance to survive, so I I learned small things.
I mean, I will never forget that.
The way we express importance, for example, you know.
In Singapore versus Germany, I mean, if if you give me as a German, you give me a job and you tell me Ankur by end of next week, please get me this type of paper ready.
My pride is to get it back. Could to get it to you by the end of next week and I don’t want you to come to me every day and say, Anka, you still remember, right? The paper next week, right? This would. I mean, you would. I would. I mean, I would be so offended. So.
You come with this mindset and then you know I had it. I had a small team, I was the only German lead. I had a secretary. I gave the secretary something to do by end of next week. And then of course, I didn’t check in with her. I thought it’s clear. It’s by end of next week. I went there the next end of next week and there was nothing, and she was looking at me and I said, but I and you said, yeah, but you did never come back to me. And I mean, you did not, you know, I mean, so this kind of reminding, saying, ah, you still have that on your mind, right. We want to get this done by end of next.
I mean, this was a little thing, but what’s really?
Something.
Which I will never forget because I I I then it was a very practical example to find out what also what leadership means in terms of how close are you to people, how much freedom. You know, what we call micromanagement in one culture, maybe actually expected or maybe good leadership in another one because you take good care.
So I think that was.
That was one of the little things in Singapore, I think starting in Singapore, Anna is is actually a good place to start with. Yes, it’s a melting pot of nations and that’s why it make it easy for you to blend in, in a sense, you don’t feel as a foreigner because the language everywhere is is English. So you can manage.
Relatively well and the life in Singapore is easy. It’s actually Asia for beginners. It’s Asia Lite, I would say.
The environment, housing and so on. It was all what you need for your family is basically great. You have good support now in terms of helpers and what else housing. And I mean, I was 29 and 30, you know, having a pool and all this kind of stuff.
And was just incredible.
And at the same time, on the business side, obviously to be a young female leader in the context of an Asian organisation.
Was also not easy, I mean because I was.
First I was in charge of Southeast Asia and then afterwards BSF had a big investment in China and was represented in Japan and Korea. Korea also very important production sites and so on. And these were all cultures that were really not in favour of young German females. I would say, and sometimes later not in, not immediately, but.
In between I thought it was quite a risk from the company to put me into this position. I could have easily failed because.
And the culture.
Of a Korean general that managed the BSF operations and to deal with me and take me serious.
Was not always an easy part, and I and I had some interesting learnings there as well, so.
Yeah, I think what stayed with me, I really this this.
This preference or interest in intercultural communication, communication and intercultural behaviour.
Understanding more, understanding better.
Was.
Was really a benefit and was so enriching. And I mean just to share one other thing on the other side, when I had the six months in Singapore, the colleague from Singapore came to Germany and my boss thought it’s actually a great idea. Uncle, why can’t you give her your apartment? Because that’s easy. You don’t need to to pay the rent. You give her your apartment. And I thought, well, maybe, why not? I had no idea.
She was always writing to me, so Anka is it OK if I live in your apartment? What will your parents say? And I like. What have my parents to say with you know, who lives in my apartment?
It never occurred to me that obviously she, as an unmarried woman, was living with her parents, so I could never live with her family in in Singapore, while in Germany, obviously I was unmarried, but to live alone in an apartment was absolutely normal. OK, so once we clear that one.
I found out in Singapore. Obviously for me I got everything supported. You know a helper and this and that in Germany this is not the case. I spare you the details of how my apartment looked when I came back after six months.
So from the mosquitoes because she forgot that with the light on and the mosquitoes come through the windows and stuff like that, and there were piles of them in the in in all the lights and stuff. So this was also in terms. I also thought the company also did not prepare well because she was not ready, you know, she she came from the other worlds for her. It was much more difficult because the the life was harder in a sense for me. I got the most beautiful living with all these great.
Great support and and I thought a lot about you see that I I I thought about a lot about it I like and I enjoy also the the challenge that come with it and also the Enlightenment when you then think oh goodness it’s actually logic right that this why didn’t we think about that.
And so that was my start in Singapore. So I had definitely a good a good. I was on the good side of things in terms of how things are organised in Singapore, I still had.
Deep, deep learnings and also.
There are frustrations when you you think I don’t get it or don’t they get me or you know, what do they talk about?
But that’s part of it. I mean the the, I think that’s something that I call the growth pain. You know you you it it hurts when you grow it definitely does and this is what I felt, but I it’s overall it was positive but it was hard at times I would not neglect that.
Ana Adi 19:51
It’s so interesting because you know, I I teach, as you know, at at codriga a course on.
Intercultural communication that when I when I moved to Berlin, it was supposed to be international public relations.
And I figured not only that to me, international PR is way too procedural is how you set this agency here and how you hire there. But I I realised that loads of people have assumptions about what is correct.
They revert very easily and very quickly to what is familiar and accepted around their environments, and they assume that it’s going to be the same everywhere else. And you know, like you, I had my my fair share of meanderings around the world.
Figuring that thing that I took for granted at home were not necessarily the same in the other places that I ended up calling calling home. So you know when you when you said that BASF sent you to Singapore and there was no training, I either think they were naive, they were naive or there was loads of wishful thinking.
You know the things will workout which is which is good that everything worked out well. Though a question popped up because you you mentioned these instances when clearly you have power differentials and rather.
Traditional and gendered attitudes associated to to the role and to what women can or or cannot do.
How did you crack that shell? How did you manage? I mean, you stayed and you said for for quite a long time in in Asia Pacific.
What was the secret sauce that you discovered that?
Helped you assert yourself and be seen for the professional that you are, but not for the four men shape in which you arrived at the at the meeting.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 21:47
You know, I think in a sense, I took it as a as a challenge. You know, I thought, OK, let’s crack. Let’s how can we crack it? And and since then, that is something that also stayed with me. Is there are ways of how you can indirectly influence? Yeah, it’s not. It’s not a point for me to convince this Korean general, you know, to respect me, but I can still find a way.
To make him take my way or or my decision.
If I’m using smartly other ways and I I use this Korean situation because I was in charge of the whole setup in Asia Pacific and that meant when when countries hired corporate comms people they had a kind of dotted line to me. But obviously the Direct Line into the country and when they hired they had to, they got my advice, you know, some asked me to interview and this and that and the situation in Korea was really like there was an empty seat and.
There was a young lady that I thought could be a possible succession.
And I went to Korea to discuss, you know, how do we proceed? I entered the office. The Korean gentleman sits there and he says, OK. Hello. Ankur. Thank you very much for coming.
Here’s your candidate, and he shuffles over a piece of paper with ACV of a gentleman. I kind of barely look at it because I couldn’t. I didn’t know the gentleman. He was part of BSF Korea, but obviously not corporate comms. And then I kind of take it to the side and said, yeah, and I want to talk to you about, you know, the colleague Trolla. And he said to me this is your candidate. And I’m like, OK, I’m like, yeah, but.
All right. Let me take a look. OK, I understand. What, what kind of corporate communication experience does? Does the colleague have? He said none. But this is not important. He has worked 15 years with the company. He has earned this leadership position.
OK. I’m like, yeah. Matt, maybe you could also take a look at the other colleague and he said no, thank you. Anka. I think we have discussed enough. Goodbye. So you are like, uh, huh? OK, what, what do I do with that one? And then, OK, I I felt like this is actually interesting. I need, I mean, this is impossible. I can’t take this gentleman. And then I I think about how does the Korean manager works.
As he takes, you know what drives him and obviously he’s hierarchical.
And there’s a person that he will obey to or listen to. And this person I know very well. So this person is sitting in my Hong Kong office, you know, it’s it’s it’s the president. Yeah. It’s the president of the region. Right. So I go to this boss and say, look, this is what happened. And here are the 2C vs. And then he said what should I do? I said, look, could you do me a favour? Please invite this gentleman.
Ana Adi 24:14
Did you did you? Did you go to his boss?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 24:30
But please also invite the young lady and then the boss of you said to me. OK, uncle, can you write me the e-mail? So I write the e-mail for my boss and for his boss and it reaches his office. And so he has to send both candidates. He has to send them. He there’s no other way. And I say also please say that you are interested and you will also interview them. So what happened was exactly, you know my, the the regional president interviewed both candidates. I interviewed both candidates. The candidate was really literally sitting.
In my room and I was asking, So what are your plans?
What would you do with corporate comms in Korea? And then he said to me, you mean, what do you think? I don’t have a clue. I don’t know corporate cons. And I’m like, interesting in my part of the world. You know, if you would say something like that, you would be totally out of the game right here. It’s a bit different. OK, I understand. I said maybe you have some ideas, you know, not knowing you could still have some ideas. But he said no, I don’t have any ideas, but I deserve this job. I said OK. I understand. So.
My boss does the same interview. He comes to me says I mean this is possible. We can’t give it to the gentleman. He has no clue. I said exactly.
He has no clue what do we do now, I said. Now you have to answer to the Korean general manager. I will draught you the e-mail and you will send it from your e-mail account. And this is what he did. And the young lady become the job. So I think this thinking of you know, how can you influence in an indirect way and not being for me it was not important that it was me, you know, giving the direction to the general manager. Basically I don’t care. I wanted the right solution and if I can manage it through different ways.
And this is something that I would always encourage also people to think about. There are really great ways, even if you are, let’s say, a small potato in a sense, yeah, of how you can influence decision making in a very meaningful way and a responsible way because people listen to different people differently and you you may have an agenda or not. People respect you in a certain way. So you can manage the destiny of the.
Of the business of the company, in very subtle ways, and I really enjoy thinking.
Of how the mechanics work and how can we influence that? And this is something I took also.
From Asia, but it’s a kind of, you know, you need this kind of it’s not a player mentality, but you need to take it a little bit as a challenge, otherwise you get you get nuts, you know because it’s frustrating and you feel, I mean this guy tells you you have to to hire this gentleman and he’s basically hierarchical higher than I am and it can be highly frustrating, right to to think, Oh my goodness. Now I have to. Yeah. So.
That was that was really, that was really interesting.
And I think you you learn flexibility also. I mean I will never forget.
This possibility in in in in China, I mean if you work in a joint venture and you think about the Germans and the Chinese, it was the biggest investment of BSF history at that time. And and it was supposed to be inaugurated and the Germans said a year before Anka, you know, next year we do this inauguration. Please could you come up and and and plan that with our Chinese partners.
I said a year ahead. I’m very sorry the Chinese partner will not think about it.
It’s too far off. OK, I could put them at peace for two more months. Then in January, they definitely got very nervous. Uncle, I said my I can still can. Still don’t talk to the child. I mean, I can talk to the Chinese, but they will never see the urgency.
They may come up with an auspicious date. Yeah, because we can find that out very early, you know? OK, let’s make it the 28th. So auspicious number in September. Very fine. But I can’t talk the details. But the Germans are on your back. So I thought, OK, I will give them a. Give them a plan.
They want a plan. I will make a plan. I don’t talk to the Chinese about the plan because no point, but I would just think about what could be a possible plan that looks meaningful. And I give it to the Germans and then we wait. And in summer, I would start talking to the Chinese and then there will be changes to the plan and nobody will ask. And it worked. It worked fine. The Germans were so happy. They had their plan. You know, it was like.
Ah, yeah. It’s something that. And it’s also interesting because that’s how we work, we we.
We plan ahead.
And that is our strength. And in China, there’s a saying and I, I love that. It’s nothing is easy, but everything is possible. And that’s true. They can come up in no time with things and build up stuff and. Yeah. And and I mean one of my most funniest examples was exactly as we we are we are there now we do the inauguration inauguration and I work with my German CEO.
Through the site we see the.
Where the event should take place.
And then there’s the backdrop and our logo is wrong.
And I look at my Chinese colleague and I say, well, this is not the BSF logo, he said. No, no, but this is much nicer, isn’t it? I’m like, all right, this is much nicer. It’s not really the category that we are discussing here and my obviously the CEO looked at me and I’m like, yeah, yeah, we will settle that. No worries. You know, we just walk and then obviously we managed it because the Chinese are able.
Overnight to change the logo, which in Germany would maybe would not be possible, maybe due to night work and stuff like that.
And they did. But I think also you’re thinking about like, but this is much nicer. You give it a bit of little colour la, la, la so and I, you know, just this you stand there, you see it and you’re like my goodness, we would never play around with a logo, right. It would never occur to us. And there you are. And it’s one day before the event. And then you look at the backdrop and it’s a it’s a major problem actually. But you can solve it and also kind of taking it with a pitch of.
That interesting, I mean, isn’t that interesting that somebody could just think about? I embellish the logo a little bit.
And I I think you have to take it with, yeah, you have to to to try to balance to don’t get too. Yeah, too worried, too panicky about these things. And you also can settle them in a country like China in a way that you would maybe not able to settle in Germany.
Ana Adi 30:39
And you are in an equally challenging and fascinating role at Biostv right now. Do you still play that chess with people or as I call it, social network tag?
I promise we won’t tell your colleagues.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 31:02
No, it’s something that I’m actually talking also with my team about because I think it’s something that in terms of influence and impact is important to think about and and to do it in a responsible way to really try to understand the different players. And sometimes you are, we are more objective and people you know, if if personalities come into play and preferences and then some things look like they are personal decisions.
While we come in and can make it a professional suggestion.
And and we talk about it and and try it and yes, yes, it’s it. I I found that it works in different ways in in many places. I have to say because you always find things which are more personal and where you can try to give it a more objective spin. I think this is the I think this is the gist of it that you try to find ways where people can accept certain decisions when they come from somebody else much easier than because it’s not linked to the decision. It may be linked to personalities.
Whatever. So yes, we are. We are talking about it, but I think it’s also important to to do that.
In a responsible, meaningful and and and.
And very in a way that you’re clear you are doing this now. Right? And and that’s it’s also important to talk about it why we do it this way and how can we do it? How can we make.
Yeah, come to A to our preferred decision. How can we help this? In the end, it’s also about. It’s about the company doing the best for the company, but sometimes it’s also about making life easier for corporate coms, for our own team.
So it has both perspectives and to talk about it, I think it’s important and to think about how can we strategize, I mean it’s a, it’s a bit of a game in that sense. You see who is influencing who and how can you get into that?
Into that game, in a sense, but in a positive in a positive spirit, yeah.
Ana Adi 32:49
It’s just it. It reminds me. I mean, the way and the examples that you share reminds me a little bit of what I cover when we talk about theories of public relations. Right then there’s this.
Fascinating concept that comes from the postmodern school of of thought that invites people to think of power and power relations.
And it comes a little bit as a critique to everything that we’ve seen coming up from this management perspective of public relations. You know, we’re we’re managing resources and processes.
And the invitation there is to devolve if to split up power and influence or hierarchy and influence.
And therefore the suggestion is that you know, if you don’t like the decision to support the decision, even if you’re the specialist, as a communicator, the traditional way would just be to accept, right? This is what my bosses are telling me. I just do what I’m told.
Whereas this new way of thinking is inviting you to look around, what are the centres of power? What are the centres of influence and in in a sense of rise up against?
Right. But that’s a very scary thing to say in Coms. My students usually wobble the first time when they hear that, and I said. But you do have a way, you know of networking around those power structures and therefore build networks of support within the organisation.
You know, and then there’s obviously ways in which you can bring information and research and everything your knowledge that that you have to support.
To support the particular decision, but they’re also the theory is also saying that we assume.
That there’s this vacuum of power, right, that the all the decisions are taken in a room. Maybe, maybe in a German room it works like that. But you’ve said it in in very different ways, right? That everybody sits in a room that they agree on things and then they’re going to come out of the room and it’s settled and nobody is going to take a different decision after that.
I’m not quite sure life works like that, right? You go for coffees. You have another meeting.
Decisions seem to be hardly hardly ever final final, and unless you’re again in a Western culture where things are written, they’re consigned, they’re they’re determined. And then and then we we move on.
Let me let me keep you a little bit on on this fascinating responsibility that you have of leading.
Comes in global context because that’s not an, not an easy thing. How do you do that? Arguably not everybody can be pleased at the same time, and not everybody wants the same thing from you countries. Wise Department wise stakeholder wise.
So how how do you turn the impossible into the possible?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 35:48
I’m not sure that it always.
I always succeed and I think that is also part of what you have to acknowledge, that in most of the cases.
You you try your best, but there it’s also you know you will not always win. I think in this is and this is also something I think you this is also important because if you think this game is something you have always to win you go in with a different attitude I think and and this may not be helpful to find the compromise I think for me it has helped tremendously to work outside of that court.
Because I understand.
A little bit at least about the difficulties that you have in other parts of the world, because generally you have a small team, you know where in the headquarters you have an expert for everything and every expert sends an e-mail. It may just land with one colleague in Indonesia and not ten colleagues in Germany. Yeah. So. And to to try to understand and find a good balance of saying, look, there is a responsibility for global comms. If you are headquarter to try to make the life.
Of the country’s easier so to find something of how you can support them.
We are, you may say yes, we have, you know by right. So we have the governance and you know the directions have to come for us. Let’s face it, everybody in Indonesia or in Thailand, you know, and we can’t control them. So either they are with us and do what we all agree upon or they can jump around and do. I will never see it. So I mean there is no so. So I think to try to find a good understanding and say OK first of all we have a responsibility because we have more resources.
In general, and so we.
Our role is really to support them, yeah. And to try to find ways of how we can best support them. I think this is the and to say that this is different from headquarters. I mean, it’s a different situation and to just think about putting yourself into their shoes, you know what, what would be helpful or not? And I think this is something that I brought back when I came back from Asia and that was very close to my heart to think about. How can the global team get a more global perspective in terms of?
The people in the countries generally they are looking.
Up to headquarters, in most cases it’s not a problem, at least for those developing teams, and they will look for guidance. It’s not that they don’t. If they don’t do it, it has nothing to do with power games in most of the cases, it has to do. They just don’t have the resources. They don’t know how to do it. They will not be able to say it. And you have to read between the lines. This is another chapter you. But so I think the general understanding of how do we want to make it work and how do you create a community?
Make the people part of this community to the extent possible. There may be different backgrounds and competencies and skill sets and so on so forth. I worked in Asia Pacific with a lot of people who had no comms background. In the beginning we created the comms community based on HR people on assistance of general managers. You know, whoever had an inkling for comms, la, la, la. But that was OK, you know, and we.
And it was amazing what you can achieve with a group of people who are really willing to learn.
And and who are motivated and how much energy you can get into that compared to a fully skilled, you know 100 people, corporate comms expert group. So I think this thinking about the responsibility of global and the understanding what’s happening on the other side and then really trying to understand where they are coming from, giving time to that and finding ways to understand better. Yeah, sometimes phone calls in English.
Is very difficult for some colleagues. For some Germans, it’s difficult because the accent is different.
From country to country and for the countries, it’s very difficult because my God, German English may not be their their daily.
Dealings and they may be shy to say that they don’t understand. So you have to find also ways of writing. A lot comes down to misunderstanding, I think. Don’t underestimate that. So I think to kind of try to instil this also this search for understanding and trying to see if things are not going in the right direction. Where is this coming from and explore a little bit more and try so always ask you know never assume.
I think this is this is very important and and be open to it and I have to say I did a lot of. I mean when I was based in Singapore, I was really critical of German headquarters. I mean, I first of all, everything they wrote was in German. I saw I wrote back to them. Please could you write in English because I cannot forward to my team. And so they put minutes in like anger Schmidt requests emails in English. I mean they found that funny at that time. And I was like, OK, it reads a bit.
But OK, it’s a fact. And please, could we do the calls at the time, not just when Germany is at lunchtime, you know? And in Asia, it’s night time already. And don’t call me at 11 O clock at night because in Ludvik staff, nobody would be at 11 O clock in the office. So.
And so I think these type of things, I also was very harsh on you know very I was probably one of the harshest critiques of headquarters. That’s why it made perfect sense. When I came back that I got this position to see what is possible but also what limitations headquarters head you know they were also driven by certain you know like the board wanting something and you know wanted it fast and you have to deal with different.
Cultures and nationalities and their understanding of timing and so on.
So I think it was good. I think an understanding it helps if you live in the other world in both parts also in in headquarters.
To generate better understanding and that’s why I also brought and put a lot of emphasis in in international exchange and bringing people to headquarters and bringing people to the regions. Because I think when you have lived through it, it comes a bit more natural. You can learn it. But learning is always a bit theoretical. If you have lived through it, it comes more natural. You can’t help you will immediately think about how it was when you were there.
Ana Adi 41:41
But that’s something that I tell my students, particularly when we talk about intercultural communication. I say that education is good.
Exposure is fantastic to build empathy, but without the the experience and what I call is the experience of being weird to be the odd one out, you can’t really hype that empathy, right? So it’s you. You have to feel it on your own on your own.
Right.
And and and then. For some reason that the direct and and not mediated experience is.
Is is lasting? Is stronger, but of course that that is an ideal in into this day and age where we are trying to travel less and pollute less.
Maybe it’s it’s difficult to achieve, but who knows, maybe the solution is to to have these exchanges longer to to really do what you did when you started.
At the risk of ending up with walls filled up with mosquitoes.
To to really have these longer term immersions in order to achieve that, that change of of perspective, you said something that’s really, really valuable and loads of people refer that particularly when they speak about Asia, this reading the silence.
There’s there’s a particular space. There’s a particular rhythm that people in Asia have, and probably the probably the more eastwards you go from our perspective the the more that silence increases, right?
To a point that when when you’re in conversations, the silence becomes uncomfortable in in these exchanges. But I’m just thinking more of the metaphorical silence rather than these pauses that we take in conversations. How do you deal with?
Identifying when your teams in Asia need help.
Considering you know that as as you said it takes, it takes a while to formulate that there might be a cultural barrier.
Autolinguistic barrier and communicating that to you. So how do you do it? How do you figure out that this team or that person in particular needs help and they need it now, but they’re just not telling us?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 44:13
Yeah.
And you know it’s it’s still work in progress in the sense, you know, I think you never get our, I certainly I’m not perfect at it but I.
I have today a better sense of thinking that there’s a problem. Then assuming that there is no problem, I so I am from what I’ve learnt in Asia, it is more.
That silence or no answer or the e-mail goes around, you know it’s.
Beats around the Bush. It’s what we have asked. And I then assume there may be a problem. Yeah, I may assume that somebody is. It’s actually a more prideful help. It’s a bit too big a word, but you know, I rather wear on the side on. Let’s offer help. So I think.
It’s then about offering in Germany and I mean this is something if you think about it, I mean.
When I think about what we have talked about and you hear me talking and you know me a bit.
And I’m clearly not the Asian type, so to speak, right? I’m far too direct. You can read me. You know, high energy and so on and so forth. So you can imagine that it was a big learning for me in, in that culture and and and thinking about who I’m somebody. If you want something or I want something. I will speak about it. You know I will open my mouth I’m so it’s probably the extreme you know.
The extreme other side, and that’s what I’ve learned, is really to not.
Assume that it’s exactly the way I would approach it, but really go to the other extreme and I found out when you offer help, people take it, but you should not be like like general, you know, let me know if I can be of any help. This also doesn’t work in most of these cultures. It can be a good starting point, but you could also say something. Would it help you if I start working on La, La, la or shall I talk over and draught the interview?
If you are precise like that, they would say, Oh yes, that would be great.
They will never say please drop the interview.
I I I don’t. I mean in most cases I’m generalising a little bit, but I think if you lend your hand, you you reach out but with a very precise offer if they need it, they will say they need it. If they then say no, then it’s also no. You may. I may have misread them. Yeah, it’s.
But so don’t be too general, be precise and make it easy for them then to to take it to take it to take the offer. And I I have to say I I read a lot. I mean I can read a lot in, in.
It’s really funny that this experience stayed with me. It really marked me a lot. We had these days here in Hamburg and by ourself, the visit of the Vice Mayor of Shanghai actually yesterday evening and the preparation of this visit. And when I knew exactly when the e-mail came in from the Chinese colleagues, I knew that this would be a mountain of work. I just and they made it look like, you know, he just wants R&D lab tour. But you can imagine the whole protocol and all the stuff around it.
And and four weeks ago.
Ana Adi 47:24
Do I have to? Did you have to build a bigger entrance? I’ve heard cases like that when you know, the Chinese official came in and the protocol team suggested that the entrance is not worthy of the status of the Chinese officials. So big, big.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 47:39
We didn’t. We get it didn’t get down that lane. Yeah, I can imagine. But we didn’t. Yeah, no.
Ana Adi 47:42
Bigger doors.
Bigger doors had to be installed and no revolving doors. Thank you very much.
So.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 47:50
All right. Yeah. We went away from the revolving doors because it would have been difficult to get the whole delegation in because they hadn’t enough time. And I learned yesterday that a dinner of 20 minutes is absolutely possible seated. So I think because they didn’t have a lot of time and they, but yeah, they didn’t come only to visit us. They were here for some work. And the, you know, the partnership with the city.
Ana Adi 48:11
20 minute. So you were saying that they came?
A mountain. A great amount of work. Sorry, I’ve interrupted you with my with my, my door question. And how did you align the entire team and get it done? I mean, you’ve said that Germans need way more time to prep.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 48:18
No problem.
Ana Adi 48:30
To to plan for the small details.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 48:30
In that sense, I just said, look, take a look. Yeah, no, I mean I.
I advise them, I said. Take a closer look. Build a team you know, think about what is needed. It will be more than you think and we don’t have experience with the protocol. I mean, this is also something that not every German headquarter has received. The Chinese official. So there’s also some learning for us. And obviously I always said check with a Chinese colleagues, ask them if dinner in a canteen.
Setting is OK because it’s still a canteen.
You know if if a square table compared to round table and so on and so forth. So ask the colleagues the local colleagues. Make sure you align everything with the Chinese colleagues and I mean they sent four people ahead of time to come to make sure you know water bottles and green tea and everything is ready and.
But I think it’s also clear that you have.
You have to respect the local wisdom and and and know how and it’s best to all to show that to show that to the colleague because they will take it then.
They are happy to take it if they know that headquarter, ask them to help, they will. They will readily do it. Will they come by themselves and say, look, we need to be here to make sure everything is fine? I don’t think so. I’m not sure. Some may some may not. They may send subtle signals like I I will be there already on Thursday, Lola. But we may miss the signals because in general German culture is a bit more direct. So if you don’t say it.
Chances are that I may not read it correctly.
Yeah. So, so I think also then taking the Chinese responsibility and taking the expertise and making sure they understand that we rely also on the expertise we already to work with them hand in hand. And this work very nicely actually it was a.
A lot of work my team said to me. My goodness, you know?
And yes, but the Chinese colleagues were very happy, and the vice mayor was very impressed. So we are looking for a prosperous business in China now.
Ana Adi 50:33
Well, then congratulations does not does not easy to pull off.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 50:37
Yes.
Ana Adi 50:40
But very good that no entrances had to be moved. I’ll. I’ll bring you to one more question and I know it’s it’s close to your heart. Otherwise you wouldn’t be so active. There is a global women NPR chapter in in Germany. You’re actually one of the founding members.
You you haven’t got enough to do with it.
But leaving leaving you know this government to sign. What drove you to? To insist that Germany needs a chapter of global women? NPR.
And and how do you think the work that you do there, the mentorship that you organise and you provide is shaping German PR?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 51:28
I have the big credit to this. I have really to to be honest and I the big credit of driving the global women, NPR.
Does has to go to Cornelia Kudsen. So she was the driving point behind everything and she was the one contacting me. And to be very.
To be, to be honest, and also true to the to history, initially I was a bit sceptical because I’m not a big fan of these women’s circles. I believe in mixed teen mixed teams and so on so forth.
And but I know at that time we were only four women in and then 3330 ducks companies. And if you think about it that we have 70% of this is still right at that time you know 70% of of graduates being female and then entering into the into the PR workforce and and I believe that if you have this background then you should have at least 70% and we had 70% in the teams. But then in the leadership.
It all kind of went upside down, so to speak, a lot of leadership where with male colleagues. And so when I spoke to Corneli and initially was a little bit hesitant, then finally I said to myself, if I want to make a difference and I if I believe that this should change, we should be, you know really paying tribute and attention to competencies and skill sets and so on.
Male or female, but in the sense more female. Then I have to play my part. I can’t be one of those four.
The ladies thinking that this is not right, but then sitting nicely back and looking and watching others and asking from others to do something about it. And so I I I joined and I joined as a founding founding member and I promised as a founding member, to do more than just membership fees. And I think this is also partly the.
The success of Global women, NPR that the that those of us who committed and joined and founded also committed to do this very actively. And therefore I’m still.
I I would always tell everybody.
As a as a female executive or as female manager in comms or PR to at least take a look at global women PR. Because if you want to get exposed to any of those female leaders of the Dax 40, then this is the place where you will get all of them. This is where we managed to get all of us in. So I mean we all joined forces and we all run together the programme or or or basically.
Contribute to the programme in various different ways.
So I think it’s a it’s a good opportunity and I would always at least advise you to take a look at this association or this.
This one and I think, yeah, I mean like you say, you know, be the change you want to see in the world. So if you don’t, if we don’t contribute ourselves, then basically I can’t expect my male colleagues to drive those mission, this mission. Right. So let’s get going and do something about it. And that’s why I joined.
Ana Adi 54:36
Is there is there? Is there any story of of mentorship or a moment from from the moment he joined up? Global women NPR that stays with you. I understand you want to be. You know you you want to be the change you want to see and you clearly do that.
Have you seen that change through others?
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 55:00
I think if you look at the numbers and what had happened has happened throughout the last five years. I mean I think it has changed. It is changing, you see more female leaders and I think if you just look at the numbers then this is an incredible, I mean at the proof of this, this is is working for me personally. I think mentoring is always something that is close to me at my heart because I also take a lot of learnings out of this. It’s not just for me teaching people or preaching about what I have exper.
As a leader, you need to always, you know, work on yourself basically, right. You are never made, you know, fully made finalised piece of art. It’s constant, it’s constant work. And I what? What stays with me a lot is this is the topic of juggling family and and career. And I had amazing talks with with female colleagues who were really struggling.
In terms of, you know, here I have this opportunity.
But actually I’m in this phase of my life and and to tell them and this is something that I learned with one of one of my early bosses in in, in Asia, that there’s nothing more important than your family. There’s no business matter that is more important. Your family will always will miss. You will will worry about you.
And and it should get first priority and the business is a different ball game. It’s also important, but it’s not, it’s not in the same magnitude. And to to have that right.
To know I love my job, I have done. You are right. I’ve done an amazing career. I’ve the careers have come not because I always was so ambitious, you know, wanted always to be on the top. Actually, this was not what drove me. I’ve done what I loved. I’ve given everything I could because I just enjoyed so much the the, the positions they gave me.
But to also know in life, what are your priorities? I think it’s something that I still find in some of my mentor. It’s still a topic that we talk about.
It’s also topic in term about who you are with your partner is actually an incredible important part of your life and he has played in a very important part in my life as well without the support of your family or your partners. This is this is not possible. But to also make this very clear with all the love of the job for the job and and and for the career and so on. And there are more important things in life.
Ana Adi 57:33
We’re finding networks of support. I I guess that’s a topic we’ll still continue to debate moving forward, but how exciting and to to see that change in the five years that you spoke about anger, that’s it. I’d love to talk to you forever, but we’ve established you’re busy and there’s only so much time no one can take out of your precious time. Thank you so very much for joining women NPR today.
And for sharing all those fantastic lessons of.
How you succeed when the rules are not quite known, fantastic having you today.
Schmidt, Anke /BDF HAM 58:11
Thank you so much. I hope it was. It’s still adjustable. It was a lot. I enjoyed the talk a lot, but you saw I also got carried away, I guess with some of the topics that are so close to my heart, I enjoyed the time, but I hope it’s not too much for the audience.